Wolfgang Becker

DD: This one too! The quality is quite good.

That’s a nice initiative, I think, to do that.

Maybe I can tell a bit more about the research project and about Argos? I don’t know if you ever visited Argos in the past?

So, we were founded in 1989 and that was mainly because in the seventies you had the International Cultural Center in Antwerp with Flor Bex-

No, we are in Brussels. But that was very important for the production and distribution of video for artists. But then in 1985 the ICC became part M HKA, the museum of Contemporary Art in Antwerp and the activities that ICC did stopped a little bit. In the end of the seventies, beginning of the eighties you also had the New Workshop in Brussels that was important for production and distribution of video art. But they also stopped their activities in 1985 when they became part of Beursschouwburg in Brussels. Then there were discussions to proceed these activities for video. There were discussions with artists and with Beursschouwburg but then there was a decision: we don’t do it anymore. Then there were two former employees from the Flemish Theater Institute that decided together with some Belgian artists to found Argos and in the first years we mainly focused on the distribution of video, artistfilm- and video. But at the end of the eighties the idea of building a collection started and then we also started the first conservation projects which were very early at that time. Because I don’t think that in 2000 a lot of organizations were already thinking about how to preserve this kind of material. We did a conservation and restauration project for the videoworks of Lili Dijourie and some other artists. Today we have built up a collection of more than 5000 artistfilms- and videos.

Yep, 5000.

We don’t buy works, but we work a little bit like a museum. We make exhibitions, we do the conservation of the works, we are disclosing the works in our library, we have a library where people can do research, but we make contracts with artists. We have archiving contracts and these contracts say that we take all the costs for preserving the works for free but in exchange we ask the artist if we can make the work available in our media library for education and that we can show the work within Argos, so not outside Argos. If for instance another organization, let’s say Ludwig forum, asks us to lend a work then we cannot do it with these archiving contracts. We also have a distribution contract and there we take care of the whole distribution event. If for instance Ludwig Forum contacts us to show a work then we do everything to bring the work to Ludwig, to provide it in the right format to send it to here. Then we have a 35% of the revenue to cover our costs like for our personel that is doing distribution and to send it and then 65% of the fees goes to the artist. With this contract we can distribute it or we can show it at another venue than Argos. That is a little bit the model on which our collection is built.

It’s private, it’s like a VZW, I don’t know how you call it in English. It’s like an organization without profit and we are subventioned mainly by the Flemish government, but we have to submit a dossier every five years. We have to ask the government every five years for structural funding so it’s possible that we don’t get the same money or that we get less or if we want to do more things that we ask more but we don’t get it. So if we get subventions it’s for five years and then we have to resubmit. So, we are mainly subventioned by the Flemish government but we also try to maintain the collection by the incomes we have from distribution, so we invest it in infrastructure, things like that.

If somebody wants it, then we have fees that are different for single screening or for exhibiton and then we make a price that is based on the duration of the work and also if it’s a single screening then it’s cheaper but if it’s like an exhibition that lasts three months or six months there’s also a difference in price. We always negotiate but for us the most important thing is that a big part of these revenues are going back to the artist.

That depends on what the organization asks. So if it’s an older work that was made on an analog support then we have it in a digital format but now it’s less and less. In the past there were a lot of institutions that asked the DVD and then we burned it on a DVD but now it’s always never asked anymore. It becomes more and more like an obsolete screening format. Sometimes its Blue-ray but that’s also something that is not asked a lot anymore.

Yes, if the file is not too large but otherwise we send a hard disk or a USB-stick and then it depends on the venue what we deliver. Of course, it is shown on a small monitor, it’s different if you show it on a big cinema screen so then we see there are institutions that ask for a ProRes or.... So, depending on what equipment they have, we deliver what they need.

Goh, I’m not so aware of-

I think something like that, maybe 150? There is also a difference between when it’s shown in an educational context or not. For educational purposes, if it’s like for instance a professor who wants to show it during a symposium or something, then we offer 50% reduction. So, it’s not the same for an institution that asks entrance fees, then we make deal. It also depends on if they ask a lot of films because then it becomes very expensive when you count all the costs for each film but then we say: okay, if you this package we can offer it for this amount that is cheaper than if you would count every film individually.

It’s the artist that gives us the permission. Our distribution is also non-exclusive so that means the artist keeps owner of his work so if he wants to give it to an organization or wants to distribute it himself or herself, he or she can do it.

No, they also have a copy because we also do preservation, they can come to us and ask a copy whenever they want but they also can have other distributors because you also have LAX in the UK, you have LIMA in the Netherlands. So, if they want to have 10 other distributors besides Argos, it’s no problem, they can do it. If they want to give it for free in a museum, we cannot say you can’t do this or that, we are just distributing the work and if we have incomes of the distribution event then we take a part cover our cost and we give the rest of the revenues to the artist.

Yes, we have balances that we send out every year to the artists where they get an overview of all the events and what we ask, what we got. Every year they get an inventory of all the incomes.

Yes, we have-

We are ten with the director, everyone together. So, we have a-

No, I’m the collection manager so I’m responsible for everything that is related to the collection also the conservation and the preservation. But we also have an IT-manager, video-technician who is doing the whole IT-infrastructure because now we have an archive of more than 200 terabytes. So, for a foundation without profit it’s really a big infrastructure. All these servers, all these tape robots, it’s something that is not lasting forever so you have to refresh your hardware and hard disks. It’s also a really costly activity but we get a lot of feedback from artists that it’s really a relief that they don’t have to take care of these preservations themselves because the technology is changing so rapidly and its costs so much to have this infrastructure and do it properly that they are really glad that there is an organization like us where they can just if they finish a film put it there and they know: I don’t have to care about the hard disk, if my hard disk crashes I can just go back to Argos with a new one and they copy all the files on this hard disk. For them it’s a real relief that they only have to focus on the creation of new works, and they don’t have to always be busy with the old works and how to keep it readable for the future. We also do everything as much as possible with the artist, so with respect for their intention. If we do digitalizations or restorations, we always go back with the captures. Sometimes if we have different captures of tapes, we try to choose the best version and say okay form this moment this is the digital version that is approved by the artist. If it’s being shown, we also try to document how they want it to be shown with respect for how they created it. So, if it’s an installation that we document then it can be shown on a monitor, but it cannot be projected on a wall or a cinema screen. Now with recent installations we cannot show it projected on a white wall, it has to be a black wall, and when you have the projection, it has to be one meter above the ground and stuff like that. So, also when distribute we have installation requirements that we provide to the people that show it and we say these are the instructions of the artists, if you show the work then you have to respect these things. That’s the way we work.

No, for Belgium we have a quiet representative collection because we inherited a lot of works from the ICC archive which very important for the beginning of video art in Belgium. We also inherited the archive of the New Workshop. From the end of nineties until 2005 Argos also organized The Argos Festival where we asked Belgian artists to submit new productions for the festival and we also have a history of 30 years and we also always have had a very active collection policy to acquire our works. For Belgium it's a really representative collection but about 60% is Belgian and about 40% is European and International artists from Canada, the US, Korea.

Yes.

It’s film and video but the main focus is on video. But it’s video and film made by artists. And this research project we started in July 2018, we do it with some academic partners: the University of Brussels, the University of Liège are involved; Marc-Emmanuel Mélon is one of the research partners. We also have MHKA, the Museum of Contemporary Art who has the ICC archives that is partner in the project, and we have some freelance researchers. The project is really focused on Belgian artists in film and video from the seventies. We chose this period because there is not a lot of research done in Belgium about the first years of video art and there are not a lot of publications. All the information is spread in archives. Some things are not clear, so we really thought we needed to speak with the people that were active that time, so we have to do interviews but of course that were active in the seventies are now having a certain age, so we really have do it now otherwise it’s maybe too late. We also have the problem of the supports like Sony Open Reel videos, it becomes more and more difficult to digitalize them and these were the formats that were used in the seventies, so that’s why we thought we start with the seventies. It’s also an interesting period because that’s the beginning of the medium, so it’s also interesting to see what they did with the new medium. It was still very expensive to have the equipment so how do they got the tools to produce this work? So that’s why we chose this time. Now, we are in the first phase of the project: the research phase. We started making an inventory of all the films and videos that were made in the seventies in Belgium. We already had a lot in our collection, we already had a lot in the ICC archive but we also search in literature, in archives to add films and videos that we were not aware of to have a complete overview and then we started with interviews with artists with art historical and material-technical research, so we interviewed them about their work but also about the scene where they were shown, what were interesting places where they could show their work, how they got the equipment to make the work. We also document them if we retrace different versions of works then we try to get a view on why were there different versions? Are these the correct versions? Is it not the correct version? So we also do this material-technical research. Besides artists we also interviewed key figures that were important like Flor Bex, who was the director of ICC. We also did an interview with Guy Jungblut from the gallery Yellow Now and also with Robert Stéphane of Vidéographies. Also, to hear their story about why they started working with the medium, so we did now more than 30 interviews already and I think we got a lot of valuable information from these oral testimonies. Now this phase is until June, we have a year for every phase. Then we hopefully get the funds to do the second phase that will be the digitalization and restoration of works that are not in our collection yet or not digitalized or restored. Then in the third phase, that will also last a year, the purpose is to disclose these research results and the works-

Yes, to make it public. So, we will make a publication, organize a symposium, do an exhibition with it but we really-

And yes, send it around maybe. But that’s also why we try to take these works into the collection because then it’s not project related. The purpose is to include them in our regular collection work and like this they keep preserved, we can add info: if we get for instance three years after the project new information, we can add it, we can document it, we can make everything available for other people. Also, this documentation about how showing works we want to share it with professionals so that they don’t have to redo the work every time because I think we do a lot of double work sometimes. So, that’s a little bit the purpose of the project and we don’t want to stop with the seventies of course; if the seventies are done then we would like to do the eighties and then continue.

So, that’s a little bit the purpose of the project. Your name also came up often, also in the interview with Flor Bex. He said you had a very good relation and that you exchanged tapes. I also think you knew Guy Jungblut-

We were also very interested to hear more about the exchange between Aachen and Belgium and I think you also saw a lot of things happening in Belgium during the seventies. So, for us it was also very valuable to have this interview to know more about what was happening in Liège and in Antwerp. We also saw that you organized some exhibitions with work of Belgian artists like Belgien: Junge Künstler. That’s why we would really like to talk to you because you could also give us valuable information about that.

DD: We always start with a general question: what was the first introduction to the medium of video and/ or film was? So how did you first encounter film?

It was Peeters who also had an exhibiton with two other collectors in Van Abbemuseum: Three Blind Mice?

It was together with Visser, Peeters and this collector, I know him, hmmm.

I don’t know but we can try to trace this info and I can send it to you.

Maybe this was also something that was shown at the exhibition at van Abbemuseum in the Three Blind Mice exhibition? I have the catalog in our library so I can check it. We also have a documentary of Jef Cornelis in our collection. Cornelis was a director that worked with Belgian television from the 1960s until 1997 and he made about 222 films about art events, about artist portraits but with a more artistic approach. He made television in a way that is not possible anymore today. Now we consider it more as art than as documentary form television. He also did reportages of art events in Belgium, in the Netherlands. He also made a documentary about Three Blind Mice where he interviewed the three collectors: Visser, Peeters and another one. Then you see the collector Peeters talking about the works in his collections so maybe he can also check if he’s saying something about that in this documentary? I will try to find out where it is and if it was shown at the Van Abbe exhibition and then I will make a copy for the catalog.

We also found about Alain D’hooghe by talking to Jacques Challier. We didn’t hear of him, but I think he was a very interesting artist. He made this Prototype Culinaire and other things like that. Jacques Challier told us he made also a lot of 60 mm films. We were also very interested in that for our research but apparently he died in the beginning of the nineties and his family threw all the films away. So, now we are trying to find a copy somewhere because it was also shown at Paris Biënnale in 75, it was shown in Lausanne at Video, Galerie Impact in 74. We traced one film in the Belgian film archive, but we were wondering if you knew him and what this person was like and if you saw films of him? And if you know more about what he made

No, not yet.

He is still working in Liège because one of our colleagues worked together with him. But we have talked to Jean-Michel Botquin, who did a lot of research about Liège. But we didn’t contact Laurent Jacob yet so maybe we should meet?

We tried to find a way to contact her for Galerie vega but we didn’t manage to get contact details to talk with her. Do you know how we-

We found her name regularly in our research, so we were wondering if there was also a lot of video shown?

In a lot of interviews there is said ‘ oh no Galerie Vega there were no videos shown’ but now Michael said he remembered that there were films and videos shown. It was not the core of what the galerie was showing but there were videos exhibited so for us it would be interesting to talk with someone who still has memories of what video or exhibitions were shown in the gallery or if we could consult some archive material?

Did you sometimes visit Cirque d’Hiver in Liège?

Is it the little magazine they had?

Was it recently published?

I know about this performance but I can’t remember the name of the artist now.

We heard that Cirque d’Hiver was a very interesting place in Liège where a lot of things happened. Michel antaki, who was a little bit the founder of this place, sold his archive tot the province of liege. They are still making an inventory of it right now so it’s not accessible at the moment so we cannot consult it. We know that they organized from 77-78 a lot of things with video focusing sometimes on Canadian video but they also showed Belgian video work. There also were debates with the public and the artist after the screening where they talked about videos. They also register everything that was happening on video in Cirque d’hiver but apparently at a certain moment they gave it to an archive, I don’t remember which one. But now apparently they lost everything so all this documentation about all these events is gone. For us it is a little bit like a black spot in our research because we don’t have access to the archive so it’s very interesting to know what was going on there. Apparently they also had a collaboration between Genevieve van Cauwenberghe, who was involved in an organization with youth I think, then you had videographie and Cirque D’Hiver who were collaborating together and apparently a lot of things that were happening in Cirque D’hiver were a preparation for the videoprogram afterwards, videogrpahie. So you had these showings of videos or sometimes debates and then there Jean-Paul tréfois found then subjects to make a program of videographie. This exchange seems very interesting, but we don’t have acces to the archive of Cirque D’hiver and Jean-Paul Tréfois died a few years ago. But I don’t know which book it is.

DD: I saw in the catalogue of Junge belgische Künstler that there was a section of Continental video with videos. I was wondering if they were part of the exhibition or –

DD: You had continental video, who was producing videos in the ICC of Flor Bex.

SR: It was Chris Goyvaerts and Chris Eckhardt

DD: Exactly, that was my question, thank you. Because I saw Marc Verstockt was in it and Lili Dujouri so I was wondering if it was shown more as a compilation of Belgium Video-

DD: Yes.

DD: Yes. If you compare German to Belgian Video art, do you feel like they were more open in Germany or Belgium for the medium? Was it more difficult in Belgium or in Germany for critics or like artists?

Were you ever involved in the CAYC international encounters on video? It was organized by Jorge Glusberg who was an Argentinian and there were different editions: one was in Paris, one in London, one in Buenos Aires, .... There also was an edition in 1975 or 1976 in the ICC in Antwerp, did you participate?

Often there were also discussions between people who were working with the medium and art critics.

In a time where there wasn’t internet, yet everybody knew each other in New York or London and there was a lot of exchange, and everybody knew this person is busy with this and that person is busy with that ... In a time where you didn’t have this telecommunication like we have now it’s really incredible that it’s so..... It seems like there was more communication back then in a way, everybody was so updated all the time even without the tools we have today.

DD: I was wondering if Paul Maenz from cologne was dealing with video art or not at all?

DD: Because he was also operative in Belgium for a while. He worked together with Wide white space gallery and-

We also interviewed Anny De Decker and she had a video of Bruce Nauman, I think, but for the rest she didn’t do a lot of video in the Wide white space gallery. Bernd Lohaus participated in a film that was made by Jacques Charlier that was made for the Biennial of Paris from 1971. It was a collaboration between different galleries in Belgium: X-One gallery in Antwerp, Poirier dit Caulier was it, White Wide Space and then the other one was MTL- gallery with Fernand Spillemaeckers, the husband of Lili Dujourie. The all selected two artists: there was Jacques Charlier, Walter Swennen, Bernd Lohaus, Panamarenko, Guy Mees. Fernand Spillemaeckers also made a sequence of the film as Leo Josefstein, he did something similar as Flor Bex with Hubert Van Es. This was like the collective film with six sequences made by six artists and produced by three galleries and was shown at the Paris Biennial in 1971. But that is the only film/ video we know from Bernd Lohaus.

Yes, we have it.

No but I know them from projects we did in the past but we didn’t talk with them yet but maybe we should.

Yes, they are also very good in conservation and they already did a lot of good work for German video art. I got an e-mail from the Joseph Beuys Foundation and they recently gave all the audiovisual work made by Joseph Beuys to ZKM in Karlsruhe so now they are doing the preservation of the audiovisual work by Joseph Beuys.

In Belgium too, you have a lot of museums that have a small collection of video art but what is a little bit a pity I think is that they are only available when they are on display. Its not like here in Ludwig where you can consult the videos in a media library but in a lot of museums you cannot watch these films when they are not on display. That’s why it’s important, I think, that there are some organizations that make these videos available in their media library.

80% of the works in our collection are single screen but then we also have 20% video installations but more video installations that have multiple screens but if it concerns installations where you have a video component.... We have a few of these works but we only preserve the video component but of course this video component is not a work because it’s a part of a work but we don’t have the other objects that are part of the installation. You also have techniques now that you can film the complex installation and document it like that but that is a big effort for a collection managing institution to preserve these kinds of works and to re-install them and make it available for public when it’s not on display. It’s very complex and not easy to do. When you speak of software-based art where you also have this interactive component, it’s much more complicated. Because we do a lot of effort now for artist film and- video which is very technical but now you already have several years where there are a lot of artists, from the nineties even, who make works with a software base which is much more complicated, but I don’t think there are a lot of institutions that are focusing on this kind of art. I know LIMA, which was multi-video in the past, did some research on software-based art. They tried to preserve it by emulation but it’s much more complicated than what we do but I think now we also need to start focusing on this kind of art because otherwise a lot of works will be lost. I don’t know how it will continue but I think we will deal with a lot of problems.

DD: I wonder if you were also in contact with Ingrid Oppenheim because she also had a video collection, but I think that it was maybe more American artists. Her video archive now is in Kunstmuseum Bonn.

DD: I don’t think so

DD: Yes, we found traces but we still don’t know what is true because in Brussels there was a video gallery that showed the works of her collection together with someone called Guy Debruyn. Nobody knows him anymore but we are looking for him because it’s interesting to know which kind of video’s were shown there. But we don’t find any trace.

Besides Jacques- Louis-Nyst, are there still Belgian video artists who you think that made very interesting work or was it mainly Jacques-Louis Nyst and the CAP group who was doing-?

Leni Riefenstahl?

We will also keep you updated about the research project!

We will give you a guided tour then! It would also be great if you could come to Brussels if we’re doing some public events in the third fase that will be 2020-2021 but if you come earlier, you’re always welcome! We will certainly invite you when we do the exhibition and when we have the publication, it would be very nice if you can participate on that too. Maybe you could see Florent Bex back and some other people. I think it could be very nice!

DD: He had a small operation but now he is back, he is okay.

Jacques Charlier is also very alive!

It was also an interesting interview with him that we did. And we also did one with Jacques Lennep. I also saw Pierre Courtois. Still on the planning is Ransonnet and Guy Jungblut. We now will digitalize, in the framework of our project, the technical fiches of the first video manifestation in 1971 in the gallery Yellow Now. Jungblut asked about 81 artists to make a proposition for this closed circuit in the gallery Yellow Now and then also Barbara and Michael Leisgen and Dan Graham sent proposals but also Jacques-Louis Nyst. The fiches are the only thing left of this manifestation together with the photos of the screens because at a certain point I think the monitors were broken so they couldn’t realize the other projects anymore so now we will digitalize this and make it also available for research because I think it also is a valuable source for people to see what the proposition were like and some pictures of the screens.